Is a Roush automatically Moderately Modded?

[YsOffcr]

I was just looking at this face off to see if I wanted to wager on it and this question came to mind. Why is an 06 Roush in the Moderately Modified section, just because it's a Roush. I understand it's modded by ROUSH and started life as a GT, but then again you buy it from a dealership like any GT, Cobra, Mach 1, Saleen and V6. So if I buy a V6 with the pony package, is that considered to be Lightly Modified? It has options on it that I chose and don't come on a base V6.

http://www.gotstang.com/jfaceoffs.php?faceoffid=321

[auriansmustang]

:rofl: thats true

[psyfire]

good question....I would like to know as well!

[YELLOW FEVER]

I was just looking at this face off to see if I wanted to wager on it and this question came to mind. Why is an 06 Roush in the Moderately Modified section, just because it's a Roush. I understand it's modded by ROUSH and started life as a GT, but then again you buy it from a dealership like any GT, Cobra, Mach 1, Saleen and V6. So if I buy a V6 with the pony package, is that considered to be Lightly Modified? It has options on it that I chose and don't come on a base V6.

http://www.gotstang.com/jfaceoffs.php?faceoffid=321
I too would like to know.

[tobedeleted_blnpony05]

I thought the classes were based on powers adders...why would it matter who put them on??? :thumpupn:

[J]

Ummm think of Nicoles case.. she has a stock 5.0 but she did all of the work to swap out the 2.3 ... Is she stock???? Think on a bigger scale guys.

[J]

If anything that car should be lightly modified... who classified them?

[YsOffcr]

Ummm think of Nicoles case.. she has a stock 5.0 but she did all of the work to swap out the 2.3 ... Is she stock???? Think on a bigger scale guys.
I am J, in Nicole's case she has done a lot of work swapping that 5.0 in and she did not go to the dealer and say "I would like a 2.3L now, and I'll have it with a 5.0L on the side for later." The only non-Roush items were springs and something else. Which in my eyes look like a Lightly Modded Roush.

[YsOffcr]

If anything that car should be lightly modified... who classified them?
Bart Simpson did the classification for rocks06roush. Which only has lowering springs, and wheels. He lists the tires but I personally don't think of that as a mod.

[YsOffcr]

I thought the classes were based on powers adders...why would it matter who put them on??? :thumpupn:
So by this theory, a stock 2003-2004 Cobra would be lightly modded because of the supercharger, which was put on by Ford. Or it could be put into the moderately modified since Ford put the IRS in the rear instead of the solid axle as before. I think the classification system should go by what has been added after the car came new from the dealership, but I don't classify the cars, someone else does.

[tobedeleted_blnpony05]

So by this theory, a stock 2003-2004 Cobra would be lightly modded because of the supercharger, which was put on by Ford. Or it could be put into the moderately modified since Ford put the IRS in the rear instead of the solid axle as before. I think the classification system should go by what has been added after the car came new from the dealership, but I don't classify the cars, someone else does.

None of the classification make sense to me...you will see cars with the same mods in diff classes or a stang with more mods than mine in the light class and I am in mod/mod so is it just power adders or does it include appearance mods... In my mind stock is a base GT anything over that is gravy but like you sed we are not doing the classifications!

[J]

I am J, in Nicole's case she has done a lot of work swapping that 5.0 in and she did not go to the dealer and say "I would like a 2.3L now, and I'll have it with a 5.0L on the side for later." The only non-Roush items were springs and something else. Which in my eyes look like a Lightly Modded Roush.
Well... If I payed someone to do all the work on my car.. is it still modded?

[Scott 01Cobra]

My opinion only ..... but

How they came off the assembly line at the factory is considered "Stock".

An 03 Cobra is Stock unless modified out of that. I am going by typical HIGH-END judging shows.

Nicky's car is definitely not stock and it makes no difference who did the work, but she takes home the honor of being able to say she did it.. I have done 95% of all my mods .....

A Roush or a Saleen are IN-HOUSE After-market mods. The cars started as GT's off the factory lines and then they went to Saleen or Roush. They are NOT stock in a car show competition.

[Scott 01Cobra]

That being said ...... Technically a stock 03 cobra would be in the same category as a stock v6 mustang. You may not like it but that's reality.

Some shows break out the V6 and GT and Cobra class for just that reason. That's up to J-Man since this is HIS show :)

[trey3.8]

I disagree. As soon as Roush or Saleen or Coddington or or Shelby or Foose get their hands on the car, they are not able to sell the car under the Ford name or their name expect they have expressed written permission from Ford. That being said. They have to go through a strenous process of having their upgraded Mustangs approved for safety by the government, department of transportation, etc., just as you would a "regular" car. This is a MAJOR difference from most of us modders who do our mods only to be worried whether it will pass emissions later that year. I think this is the first difference. But once these "special editions" are made, and the rights have been bought from Ford, they are then stamped with the new companies insignias and logos. Having said that, I do not believe they qualify as modded cars. They are special editions, just like the SVT line. The real philosophy behind my believing that is this: every Saleen S281, every Roush in that year come off the line the same...period, with the exceptions of colors and trim packages, but this is standard practice with any car company as well. But go ask if you can get a Roush Stage II with a twin screw turbocharger instead of the supercharger, and you won't get it. A mod, by definition, is something to personalize your car, without reasonable limitations, making it different than anyone elses, it has nothing to do with who did your work, but what you do to the car that is not available in an assembly-line environment. :)

[YsOffcr]

Well... If I payed someone to do all the work on my car.. is it still modded?
Yes, because you are getting what you want not what Jack Roush or Steve Saleen decide what they want to sell you. My whole point to the question is there are no guide lines it is in the opion of one person or another. One person thinks that a Roush should be in the Moderately Mod. Class and then the next person comes along and puts a new 06 class in the Stock class. Then this comes down the line to the JFO's where one in the Moderate Class vs the GT in the same class, then there is a similar Roush in the stock class vs a stock V-6. How will I make a educated wager on this, I don't what Roush/Saleen/Coddington/Foose add to the Stangs they sell unless someone puts a list on their site. Both Scott and Trey have very valid points, but that reinforces my point. If both were classifying then there would be similar packaged stangs in different classes.

[YsOffcr]

That being said ...... Technically a stock 03 cobra would be in the same category as a stock v6 mustang. You may not like it but that's reality.

Some shows break out the V6 and GT and Cobra class for just that reason. That's up to J-Man since this is HIS show :)
I totally agree with this, an unmodded 03 Cobra is stock the same if you bought an unmodded V6 or GT.

[trey3.8]

So it's not a science but an art :)

[Scott 01Cobra]

Guys, what I am saying is that in any high quality Mustang car show with classes, a Roush or a 351/281 Saleen would never be in "stock" classes. However, an 03 cobra would be.

Doesn't matter how you look at it - they are already modified from the GT platform they started with. So it's a modified car - period.

The 03 cobra blower was NOT an option - nor was it taken somewhere else to be modified.

Classing a Roush in stock for the Gotstang purposes is 100% wrong ..... but once again, only my opinion.

I agree though - if you have more than J classing the cars - they better get together for coffee and compare notes.

[trey3.8]

Hmmm....

Well I don't know anything about "high quality" mustang shows (don't even know what that means actually, I guess I'm at too many low class car shows...lol j/k with you Scott).

I do know that anything that is mass manufactured for public consumption, whether it be 100,000 cars or 10, is not a custom or a mod, at least at the shows I've attended. This is how it works in every show I've ever attended. And the classes breakdowns can't be as involved as you make them to be unless you are indeed attending a mega-hugh show. That's why most car shows have limited class options and go off mods not models.

Maybe Ford shows are the only ones in the world that are different. Cause if you merely go on the basis the model of the car (Roush vs. GT) than it really comes down to who has more money, not who has modded better. Cause that's what you're really saying if you look for the deeper meaning. And that's not how it should work. That would mean just because I drive a Bentley and you drive a Civic, you should consider my car better, because I obviously will have more performance power for my money. But we all know, we base our decisions not on the cost of the initial platform but on the work achieved. That's how it works on gotstang too. A modded car is one that can be done whether it be an expensive or inexpensive job. It's the personal touch. It's about individuation not mass marketing.

I just feel a modified car is something that by nature of its definition goes beyond what comes off the showroom floor. So that's why I say it doesn't matter what comes off the showroom floor, as long as there is more than 1 car that is being offered with the same features, it is no longer "modded." So maybe the Mustang judges at the shows you've been at have a different understanding, and I'd be interested to find out what it is. I'm going to Carlisle this year and I know they really breakdown the classes. But logically, if you break it down too far, what's left? Well, mods are left! Those little wonderful touches that don't come from the factory! If it's a factory option, or special edition option...it's stock...period.

[psyfire]

With all this being said, I would like to be re-classed!! I feel with the mods that I have done with my car, I should be sitting in the mod/mod class, not the lightly mod class...take a look at my site and see for yourself!

[Roush8702]

Classing the all the car here has to be difficult, because everything is open to individual interpretation.

I have been to many of shows where judges don't truly now where to classify a Roush. Mainly because some never heard of them, or truly don't know what went in them, hell Roush has a hard time keeping option packages the same. ( I know, I'm the membership director for the ROEA and have production sheets with options , and there is NO standard )

Now if you take my car as I purchased it , a Stage 1,

Pedals, 17" chrome wheels, toolkit, gauges, exhaust, and body kit - performance wise no different then a GT ( is this modified, not really but it has more then 3 things different then a GT ) in a truly good judged event this is why Roush's will usually have a separate class.

Now originally the verts come with cloth interior, I changed out to corbeau's (leather) and had the rear seat covered to match. If I had used Roush covered seats, would anyone know the difference and still think this is factory option, probably. The shifter was changed out and the roush stamped classic w/tri-ax change. Still most will think this is stock. Swap out the 17" rims and pbr brakes for the 18's and 14"roush alcons. Change the suspension to the S3 suspension (totally different geometry and alignment specs ) still most would think this is stock, lets go further add the roush supercharger kit, hood for clearance.

Now were talking about allot of performance upgrades, handling , HP, braking, and appearance mods with the body kit, hood, gauges etc.. (every aspect of the car ) at this point you have basically build a stock stage 3

Is this car anywhere near a "stock" mustang produced and delivered from ford. IMO No.

At this point Roush, would have to look up the serial number to verify/disprove the stage

So is this lightly modified or heavily modified ( up for interpretation straight outta the gate )

TO go even further, Using my car as the example, Upgrade the radiator, HE etc. Port the blower , built bottom end, slap in a 6 speed, different driveshaft and change gears

Now you got without a doubt, heavily modified.

Add in paint that NO ONE else has, a lower grill that company's copied, vertical doors and upgrade head unit... you have custom

From a judge in a face off:
"I'm not sure Roush8702 is truly "custom" in any sense of the word."
"the interior is near stock except for the custom seats and some electronics"

These are just snips, and I don't think the meaning I got from there description was what the judge really intended but I have never had my car and the word "paltry" used in the same sentences.

I don't think everyone will be classified correctly right off the bat, a site suggestion, may be have GS members classify the vehicles, something like on the bottom of a mod page with different class, once 10 GS members vote for a particular class, there is where the class the car can compete in. you add more mod's etc. the owner can request to be re-classed, then members can re-vote until its classed again. This invokes some more site participation and maybe adds 1 point to your GS rank like voting on the hunts.

This also may can be extended to what you can compete in for example: I keep seeing best overall where there is 5 pics and the judges even saying there not enough.

Just my thoughts, Its early :beerchug:

[YsOffcr]

I don't think everyone will be classified correctly right off the bat, a site suggestion, may be have GS members classify the vehicles, something like on the bottom of a mod page with different class, once 10 GS members vote for a particular class, there is where the class the car can compete in. you add more mod's etc. the owner can request to be re-classed, then members can re-vote until its classed again. This invokes some more site participation and maybe adds 1 point to your GS rank like voting on the hunts.

This also may can be extended to what you can compete in for example: I keep seeing best overall where there is 5 pics and the judges even saying there not enough.

Just my thoughts, Its early :beerchug:

This is a pretty good idea, of course I wouldn't know how much work this would be for J.

[trey3.8]

I think what it comes down to is this. And this is directed to no one personally. If anyone has a problem with the judged face offs (just like the standard face offs)...just don't do them. It's really that easy! I had to stop doing the regular faceoffs cause I couldn't take the "perceived" buddying going on there.

Also, you can completely deconstruct this system, break it down, reveal all the inadequacies, etc., but it does no one any good because it will never be perfect. You can rant about the judges not knowing what they are talking about until your teeth fall out. Might I add to this point, that excoriating the judges is completely unfair 1) they can't defend themselves less they reveal their anonymity, and if they did, you wouldn't even have any judges, that's why you people who go after the judges and rip them by leaving comments at the end of a judged face off are completely out of line--not to say you can't politely add something to a misunderstanding, but don't beat up on them. 2) they were picked because believe it or not they know what they are talking about (you may not agree with them, but they arenot just some newbies wondering onto the site. And J obviously has confidence in their ability, so beating up on them is tantamount to criticizing J's staff 3) and finally, in the judges' defense, maybe some of you who feel ripped off by their characterizations of your car have not put together a web site that does its best to show off your car or explain what it is that makes your car unlike any other, or buried that information somewhere on page 125 of your website. I think presentation kills a lot of you. Let me also say that for all you guys who "know" car shows, you also know that there isn't a real show around that lets you hunt down the judge after the trophy ceremonies and confront him on his selections or call into question his decisions. But that's exactly what we have here. That's why the comments section I think should be done away with. Nearly 80% of the comments back from the judges always seem like corrections to people who go into faceoffs not studying up on what the judges prefer to see, or understanding the difference between a "best overall" vs. a "best exterior." How many times do we have to hear how someone challenged someone else but that someone else didn't have the proper shots, pictures too blurry, etc.? And then I've seen the same person be told consecutively how he needs to do this,this,and this before his next faceoff and he ignores the advice. So my point is, this isn't all the judges fault, and much of their decision on classifications goes into what they see and what they read on your pages and where that information is. Consider your webpage a 5 minute business presentation. You want everything relevant to jump out immediately, so the judges don't have to go hunting around for it. And those of you who think it is, take a long hard look at your sites and determine that they are as clean and as comprehensible as you can make them before shooting up the judging pool. :)

So everyone who is upset with the way things are...my advice is save yourself the personal agony and don't do them. I've had strange comments come back from the judges too. One thought because I have sponsors that they must have handed me a blank check to make my modifications, not realizing that 99% of the money down comes from my pocket to even get to a point where I can offer my car up to sponsorship. But at some point, you just suck it up and say "boy, thanks J for putting all this together and making it happen for everyone. I don't know where I'd be or where I'd show my car if it weren't for gotstang.com."

Some of you offer good advice in these threads to make things better. Kudos to you.

[YsOffcr]

Here's the reason I asked the question:
04Saleen- 2004 Saleen Class- Lightly Modified
Yellow Fever- 2006 Roush Class- Lightly Modified
Proudroushowner- 2001 Roush Class- Lightly Modified
Rocks06roush- 2006 Roush Class- Moderately Modified

The only thing I saw added to rocks06 was his springs(not installed) and wheels. Why is he Moderate, since his is a Roush Stage 1. I could see if his was a Stage 3 with a couple of add ons, being classed as Moderate.