Deaths, injuries in London blasts...

[J]

WOW..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8492258/

[J]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Maps/Europe/London_underground/London_underground3.gif

[MachGT]

stupid terrorists don't realize that this will only strengthen our resolve.

[SDRMustang1]

yeah, tell me about it, i have my best friend over there right now, havent heard from her, so i am freakin out!!!

[trey3.8]

Just wondering, why do you think these "terrorists" are fighting us? Has anyone given it any serious thought? Are we as stupid as the Bush administration thinks we are to believe that the terrorists woke up one morning and Haseb said to Kalam "let's go kill Americans cause I hate freedom!" Don't you think we did something to make them react like this? I'd like to get some opinions. Cause I think a person who approaches these issues with any thought and has done any reading on the background of U.S. involvement in the Middle East can't help but be honest and admit that we're somewhat responsible for the attitudes that have now reached critical mass in the last 10 years toward Americans--not just in the ME but around the world. Does anyone even realize how long the U.S. has been occupying the Middle East and how long we've been beckoned to leave? Not to mention Japan and Southeast Asia? I know we have some military guys here (don't know if you've spent any time over there) and I know this is a very passionate issue, so I'm just wondering as the opinion polls continue slump, and the war gets more unpopular, and more Republicans are now against the war then ever, what us stangers think. Or is it just "go Red, White, Blue, no matter the cause I'll follow you!" I made that last line up :)

[trey3.8]

stupid terrorists don't realize that this will only strengthen our resolve.

I disagree. It might strengthen the resolve of the warhawks in this nation, but it's already a well established fact that the majority of the population in England is opposed to the war according to polls. I fear it will cause more disdain in their population toward us. But what else is new?

[audiobahn81]

well my opion on all this is that i can c why we went over after 9-11 to get binladen but why are we staying there all we are doing is hurting american familys by the deaths of there family members when bush came into office my buddy was in germany and called me one night and said now that bush is in office my chance of going to war just went up 50% well he did not go but his brother did he's fine but its the fact of the matter we all need to remember that are troops are over there and lets not forget what they are going through right now and the new saying here these colors dont run and can we have a moment of silence for the death of the 37 people in london attacks.:censored: terorists

[stone_turp]

Sometimes(speaking as someone who knows war personally), when you are over there, all you have to hang on to to keep your sanity is the fact that you are doing right for you, your family, and your country. It is not about the paycheck, it is not about the job you do it is about (speaking from an aviation ordnanceman's standpoint), knowing that every bomb you load on that F-14 that does not come back killed SOMEONE. Maybe an innocent soul who got up and went to work every day to support his family but hopefully a terrorist. To know because of the bombs you load your family is sleeping easy that night. Your kids ate their dinner and took their baths with every relief that "their daddy" was out there doing what was right. To know that before the Jihad can ever reach your family it will have to go through you and every fiber of your being that will do what it can to either die or destroy that which threatens the idea that your children may not grow up to be able to choose. To keep your sanity it is these thoughts and ideas that make it possible to know that you may be taking lives but in so doing that you can know that you have done everything you can to make you and yours have the best lives possible in a world where freedom is no longer a right but a priviledge. (I'll get off my soapbox now.)

[Rwest75]

It doesnt matter that we ve been involved in the affairs of the middle east for how ever long we have. Thats just an excuse there religious zelots use to motivate there religion to jihad against us. The radical muslim religious leaders have taken there religion and twisted it to interprut what agenda they want to achieve. In this case they want us out of there affairs. They are strongly guided by religious beliefs so they are easily manipulated. They are also ignorant in foreign affairs and government policy so they rely on the religious leaders for information.

The middle east has been in turmoil for thousands of years and will probably be for thousands more. Nothing we can do or they can do will ever resolve this. War and fighting and killing each other is all they have pretty much ever known. With modern technology they have found a means to expand where and who they strike. if its not one cause today, its another and a reason to continue the violence, blame someone else for there problems and so on.

So we didnt find WMD's in Iraq. My opinion is they are in Syria or Iran but we know Iraq had them, we gave them to them to Iraq and now we cant find them. So why are we still over there? Establish Democracy a Military and the Economy so that Iraq can stand on its own 2 feet? Yeah right. History has taught us that they are always at war and as soon as we leave someone who wants to seize power for there own personal agenda, will do so. No the only reason we are in Iraq is because Iraq is the center of the Middle East. Not litterally as in geographically but as in Politically and religiously. Iraq is a political hot spot as far as middle eastern policy goes and historically A muslims, christians and jews can trace roots back to Iraq as well as the middle east. This is where it all started people. Iraq has drawn in so many radical islamic insurgents from all over the middle east just so that they can have a shot at the hated americans. we are fighting terrorism over there in order to prevent it from coming to our soil again. We have been pretty successful at it too.

Now your scratching your head and saying successful. And I say yes successful. For the most part, we here at home only here about the deaths to US service members and civilians killed in bombings and such.

We are helping to rebuild the government, economy, military and infastructure. We have and are still doing our "humanitarian" portion to help Iraq recover from the war but that isnt really the point cause in 10, to 30 years, if not sooner, after we are gone it will be seized by someone else and exploited to fit there agenda.

What we dont here about is the success of the US forces very often. My unit had performed many successful missions while over there and our casualties were very minimal for what we did. I think if anything we saved more lives. (our own, civilians and those here at home.)

The problem is the the thinking. Everyone can agree that we dont want another 9/11 or similiar incident to todays bombings in London. They think the easy way is to let them have what they want and not involve ourselves. Those who choose to think that way are blind to reality. They can say that this is logic and reasonable thinking but we are not dealing with logical and reasonable people. Since we are involved, yes people are going to die( ours and theres) We tried to approach this diplomatically. It did not work we have imposed sanctions, they were not successful. we did all that we could do. War was a last result but inevitable because of whom we are dealing with not because we didnt try to prevent it. If it were up to those who would have chosen to wait it out and try beating there heads against the wall over and over again, with out any success at arriving at a peaceful solution, then things over in Iraq would be worse off today then they were 2 years ago. I ll take this a step further. From the first gulf war, since we did not take steps to remove saddam, you can see the problems facing US and Allied forces in our second endeavor. Iraq had 12 years, most of which were unregulated and now we are having to clean up the mess. As you can see the mess didnt go away, it just got bigger and became more of a problem.

Have I thought about why we are over there? Hell yeah I have. Do i think it is because of what we did to them? Hell no. I think we are over there for what we failed to do and for what we want to prevent from happening in the future. I could give a rats ass about the middle east, what i do care about it this country and the effect that there actions have caused to our way of life. I would justify nuking the dessert and turning it into a glass parking lot because as far as im concerned we should have in the first place. At least then they would have a reason to be pissed at us but not the means to strike at us because we would send them back to the days of Flintstone and there primitive capabilities would be of no threat to us here at home. The oil over there is whats saving there lives though, but thats another rant for another day.

Ryan

[hrsepwrbrat]

Well put, man...

[93ramvert]

Ryan I'm right beside you brother, I'd stand and fight with you any day, as would many other Military personnel. Well put it's exactly the way I feel and exactly what I've been saying to everyone here.

As far as the terrorists having a bigger agenda then freedom, I'm sure there is. O.k. we're over in the Middle East and may have been there for a long time, WAHHHHHH BOOO HOOOO. Look at everything else we have done for the world. Stop and think one second what would happen if we pulled out of every country that we were in, pulled all Soldiers and bases back into the States and just dealt with North American Soil, Put no free money out to another Country, what then? The world woud fall apart, Europe, Asia, the Middle East would all be a war zone, there would be chaos every where, with the exception of China maybe. You think there is problems now. Other countries hate us because what I believe to be, out of jealousy. I hate the fact that people believe that what we are doing in Irag is for nothing. Because of the way we have to be Politically Correct Saddam knew we were coming for months ahead of time. I'm no President nor a Great Military leader, but if I had WMD's and I had a chance to get them the hell out of the country 1 to not get caught with them and 2 to make an ass out of Bush and the Americans, they'd be gone. I mean seriously if you were a drug dealer and the cops were advertising in the Newspaper that they were coming to your house for weeks ahead of time, would you keep the drugs in the house, only if your a freakin moron. And Saddam is no moron, as evil as he was he was great at what he did, and he didn't get there by being stupid. We went in there looking for a fight, we were told we would get Shock and Awe, I got UUhhh and AAAhhh, there was no shock and there was no Awe, Shock and Awe was 9/11. We're to freakin nice to our enemy, we spend billions upon billions of dollars developing new weapons and train our soldiers for all kinds of new situations, but when it comes down to it, we won't use what we have because we might upset someone for not fighting fairly. You want to get Bin Laden. Easily done. Don't tell anyone your coming, drop a freaking bomb that will clear out Afghanistan of every living breathing thing. There Bin Laden is dead, along with all the other Extremists, ohhhh I know I'm a bad guy cuz now I'm racially Profiling. To F'n bad that's what needs to be done. You want to stop our American soldiers from Dieing in Irag. Oh easy, withdraw. All the insurgents will think they have beaten us off, and will gather in the streets as they always do, then drop Bombs from the heavens. Yes innocent people will die, they are dieing now in the hundreds, America needs to grow a set like we did when we dropped the big one on Japan. Again I'm sure I look like an ass again, but Gad damn what the hell are we so afraid of. Who cares how we look, everyone hates us any way. It would be better of that the say ohh snap they use shit like that' I'm not gonna hijack a camel for fear they might hit me with a MOAB. We need to stop feeling bad for those who have done wrong, and say BS we will fight to our capicity not the enemy's. They picked the fight with us, they know what capibilities we have, why do we have to stoop to there level now to fight them.

Stop and think now. Out of all the technology that just you and I have in our houses, just normal U.S. Citizens. O.k. welfare people may have a little more but anyway the terrorists are still hitting us and causing terror with old style weapons, homemade bombs, bombs that were used in the 60's, 70's, 80's,. It's 2005 people we have 2005 technology in our military, Why then are we fighting like we have 1980 technology. These are primates fighting with primitive weapons, striking us in primitive ways, but we can't stop a Arab looking freak in an Airport line, cuz it may upset him or the Arab world, but that 85 year old heading to Florida for her last trip can be pulled. WTF is this. F Iragi's F Afghani's F Iranian's F Saudi's, F all islamic jihad facist pigs F illegal immigrants F the ACLU. They need to be profiled. Even if they are Americans in the end, we would all be safer, but because we may upset them, the 90 yr old white head is going to get pulled out of the crowd, or some white guy with blazing red hair is going to get drilled in the ass, jsut so it looks like the screeners are doing something. BS piss off everyone, to F'n bad. God forbid we pick on someone other than a white person.

Well I've said way to much now, and I still could go on. But I should stop before I dig a huge hole and throw myself in.

[trey3.8]

Ryan,

What I'm hearing from you is some contradiction which I think we all feel. They are some well-formed points, but ultimately I think you're saying that leaving will make the situation worse. I believe that the conflict in the Middle East is Biblically based. I am only concerned that our Great country did not have justifable means for going in and putting our wonderful soldiers in harm's way. That has been bore out in every evidence that surfaced. Your speculation about the way in which WMDs could have been moved out is a good idea, but highly unlikely given the logistics of nuclear containment. I worked in chemical demilitarization, and I'm only speculating as well, but given the amount of time it takes to mobilize these things, I think even the mere transportation of WMDs and weapons-grade uranium is a nightmarish scenario.

I still have issue with you thinking it's a successful campaign against terrorism if in the long run (as you agree), they will just put someone else back in power when we leave or pullout.

I am against racial profiling, both as a Christian and as a citizen. I think both of you need to look at history as a terrible reminder. Nazi Germany carried out one of the most effective campaigns in ethnic cleansing the world has ever known. If we categorically single people out, the next time something happens, they will immediately bare the brunt of our short-sightedness. American needs to be careful that it's not turning into a Nazi Germany by restricting the rights of certain peoples or harrassing them. Unfortunately, all evidence in the media bears this out as well. The rise of Naziism first initiated in a victory over peoples' thinking, not their rights. It wasn't until years later that Hitler had the people in a place where he could effectively preach hatred against the Jewish race by reinvigorated the nationalism of Wagner and invoking the Germany volkstad. The State Church of Germany supported Naziism, the same way Evangelicals are coming out in masses to support Bush. Many true Christians died in concentration camps defending the rights of the disenfranchised Jews, who were brutally singled out, suffering the loss of all things. Is this the kind of America we want? Yes, we may feel defenseless at times and because we are fighting a faceless enemy feel that are wrath is justified, but this only breeds paranoia, as is true in every historical case. So please be mindful when you make comments that are full of emotion.

As for rebuilding the government. We are doing this because we destroyed it, which is inevitable cause it was a dictatorship. So why does it seem like we're taking the moral highground by rebuilding it? That was our only option in the face of the world watching us. Again, this isn't the reason we went in. Even Germany was rebuilt after the Allies vanquished Hitler, but that wasn't the reason we went in. We went in to stop an annexing madman from destroying countries.

I think you're completely correct about the peoples in the Middle East. But nothing I see in any of your answers, neither have I seen in the media, addresses the "why." Let's talk about why the terrorists are after us in the first place. Why did 9-11 happen? Let's not debate the fine points of doctrine, why we are or aren't there and whether or not we are justified in staying. Let's talk about "first causes." I think it's very very clear that much of the hateful sentiment surrounding the United States is directly related to our occupational Imperialist appetites. You say that we are over there because "what we want to prevent happening in the future." But all you need to do is look at September 10, 2003. We're you thinking about going to Iraq then? Were you worried that the biggest threat to democracy would come from them? If you can say you were honestly, then you were in a small minority. No one was thinking about it. You see, we need to think prior to September 11, 2003, to start seeing the bigger picture. The terrorists did not attack us in a vaccuum. No terrorist woke up one more and said "I hate freedom. Let's rampage against the U.S." Historically, terrorists have very specific agendas. Despite what President Bush would have us believe, people don't attack ideas, they attack institutions that claim ideas. The terrorist war is not, as Bush claims "a war on freedom." It is a war on the U.S. brand of freedom, which has been a harsh policy of interdiction into the Middle East, where we play one country (like Saudi Arabi) against other more militant countries. I don't have a quick fix or answer for all of this. What I do know is that this stuff stretches further back than September 11th. You should read Noam Chomsky. He has some very good insights about U.S. involvement in South America and in the Middle East. He's a leftwing political commentator, but he'll make you think. I personally do not represent either side. I try to line up what's going on with my beliefs. I think it's just as immoral to send thousands of U.S. soldiers to their deaths under a false pretense. Unfortunately, we are over there because of diplomatic mistakes we have made. We are over there because we unapologetically supported Israel to the exclusion of the Palestinian voice for decades. We are over there for the oil to some extent. But also because we wanted a greater influence in the affairs of the Middle East, amid a very headstrong and proud people who despised us every step of the way. My wife's friend lived there for many years. All you need to do is ask why isn't this Middle East war happening to other powerhouses like Russia or China and you'll realize that those countries don't have bases set up in the Middle East. Sure they have their own problems, but the U.S. alone is the largest interdicting country in modern times, with the exception of Great Britain. If it's all about freedom and nuc-free world, when aren't we storming the beaches of North Korea? Think about it hard, and you'll realize, something is amiss in Washington. If this we're all about flag-waving patroitism, there are more hotspots in the world we could direct our guns at. In the end, we need to think about the first causes. Why do they hate us? What is our history in the Middle East? Start with these and I think you're on your way. :)

[trey3.8]

Also, it might be worth noting the political front facing us in Eurasia because it's a great lesson in contrasts.

The fact that Russia is onboard with our "war on terrorism" because they themselves are waging an Imperialistic campaign against their neighboring ex-Soviet era countries, which have defected from Mother Bear, should be disturbing to most Americans. Russia's "terrorists" respond with violence by continually reminding Moscow that it has no place in their affairs. They "remind" them with roadside bombs and kidnappings and all the stuff we are facing, yet the U.S. is very hesitant to support Russian when it talks about it's own problems with terrorism. But by not doing so, we actually condemn our own actions! It's terrible irony for anyone that studies world events.

Why are we more easily able to recognize the Balkans as "freedomfighters" and the Arabs as "terrorists" when both larger countries look similar in the way they exercise their own brand of justice i.e., sending in a military detachment. The Balkan citizens host terrorist campaigns the same way the Arabs do. Yet we have never come out against them to any significant extent Why? Because we are never the badguys but Russians are! And we have a vested interest in the Middle East. But the analogies are strikingly similar, to the detriment of the United States. The Balkan "freedomfighters" and the Arab "terrorists" both have the same message and have made themselves very clear to the interdicting countries: GET OUT! Unfortunately, U.S. policymakers are so bullheaded and stubborn, and relish in the fact that the world hates us, that "peace" is the last thing there are seeking as long as it is not at the expense of our interests. Rather than vilify terrorists, when we need to start understanding them. Just some food for thought...

[stone_turp]

GO NAVY!

[93ramvert]

Ryan,

#1 I am only concerned that our Great country did not have justifable means for going in and putting our wonderful soldiers in harm's way.

#2 I still have issue with you thinking it's a successful campaign against terrorism if in the long run (as you agree), they will just put someone else back in power when we leave or pullout.

#3 I am against racial profiling, both as a Christian and as a citizen. I think both of you need to look at history as a terrible reminder. Nazi Germany carried out one of the most effective campaigns in ethnic cleansing the world has ever known. If we categorically single people out, the next time something happens, they will immediately bare the brunt of our short-sightedness. American needs to be careful that it's not turning into a Nazi Germany by restricting the rights of certain peoples or harrassing them. Unfortunately, all evidence in the media bears this out as well. The rise of Naziism first initiated in a victory over peoples' thinking, not their rights. It wasn't until years later that Hitler had the people in a place where he could effectively preach hatred against the Jewish race by reinvigorated the nationalism of Wagner and invoking the Germany volkstad. The State Church of Germany supported Naziism, the same way Evangelicals are coming out in masses to support Bush. Many true Christians died in concentration camps defending the rights of the disenfranchised Jews, who were brutally singled out, suffering the loss of all things. Is this the kind of America we want? Yes, we may feel defenseless at times and because we are fighting a faceless enemy feel that are wrath is justified, but this only breeds paranoia, as is true in every historical case. So please be mindful when you make comments that are full of emotion.

As for rebuilding the government. We are doing this because we destroyed it, which is inevitable cause it was a dictatorship. So why does it seem like we're taking the moral highground by rebuilding it? That was our only option in the face of the world watching us. Again, this isn't the reason we went in. Even Germany was rebuilt after the Allies vanquished Hitler, but that wasn't the reason we went in. We went in to stop an annexing madman from destroying countries.

I think you're completely correct about the peoples in the Middle East. But nothing I see in any of your answers, neither have I seen in the media, addresses the "why." Let's talk about why the terrorists are after us in the first place. Why did 9-11 happen? Let's not debate the fine points of doctrine, why we are or aren't there and whether or not we are justified in staying. Let's talk about "first causes." I think it's very very clear that much of the hateful sentiment surrounding the United States is directly related to our occupational Imperialist appetites. You say that we are over there because "what we want to prevent happening in the future." But all you need to do is look at September 10, 2003. We're you thinking about going to Iraq then? Were you worried that the biggest threat to democracy would come from them? If you can say you were honestly, then you were in a small minority. No one was thinking about it. You see, we need to think prior to September 11, 2003, to start seeing the bigger picture. The terrorists did not attack us in a vaccuum. No terrorist woke up one more and said "I hate freedom. Let's rampage against the U.S." Historically, terrorists have very specific agendas. Despite what President Bush would have us believe, people don't attack ideas, they attack institutions that claim ideas. The terrorist war is not, as Bush claims "a war on freedom." It is a war on the U.S. brand of freedom, which has been a harsh policy of interdiction into the Middle East, where we play one country (like Saudi Arabi) against other more militant countries. I don't have a quick fix or answer for all of this. What I do know is that this stuff stretches further back than September 11th. You should read Noam Chomsky. He has some very good insights about U.S. involvement in South America and in the Middle East. He's a leftwing political commentator, but he'll make you think. I personally do not represent either side. I try to line up what's going on with my beliefs. I think it's just as immoral to send thousands of U.S. soldiers to their deaths under a false pretense. Unfortunately, we are over there because of diplomatic mistakes we have made. We are over there because we unapologetically supported Israel to the exclusion of the Palestinian voice for decades. We are over there for the oil to some extent. But also because we wanted a greater influence in the affairs of the Middle East, amid a very headstrong and proud people who despised us every step of the way. My wife's friend lived there for many years. All you need to do is ask why isn't this Middle East war happening to other powerhouses like Russia or China and you'll realize that those countries don't have bases set up in the Middle East. Sure they have their own problems, but the U.S. alone is the largest interdicting country in modern times, with the exception of Great Britain. If it's all about freedom and nuc-free world, when aren't we storming the beaches of North Korea? Think about it hard, and you'll realize, something is amiss in Washington. If this we're all about flag-waving patroitism, there are more hotspots in the world we could direct our guns at. In the end, we need to think about the first causes. Why do they hate us? What is our history in the Middle East? Start with these and I think you're on your way. :)


O.k. Trey, Define justifiable means: I believe everyone may have a different opinion on what this is. I believe that it means that if it was believed that Iraq (Saddam) had WMD’s that were to be used on us then we were justified on going in to Iraq. If we wait for hard evidence in a case like this it’s too late, the only hard evidence I think hard evidence to a lot of people would be when the WMD is used. Bam now it’s used, and now it’s to late to be proactive. Look I’m certainly no rocket scientist, and I wouldn’t claim to know how to move reactive chemicals, but Saddam knew we were coming not only days in advance, months in advance. He denied UN access for a long period of time, than bam oh you come in now. I’m not defending us still being there by saying that weapons were moved, because it may not have happened, But I would def. never say never on this one. Saddam was a smart man, who employed even smarter men, I’m sure they could have figured a way to get this stuff out.

#2 It's obvious that terroism is not only going to be fought on one front, they proved that they can be attacking in Afganistan, Iraq, and London, and many other places all in the same day. And I'd be dumb to say, if we're there fighting them then they won't come here. That's B.S. But there is a lot of Insurgent focus on the efforts in Iraq, I think it's obvious that we have disrupted alot of what they had, and maybe if we could actual question the sandgoons without having to baby them, maybe something more would come of our efforts. No instead we want to shut down Quantonamo Bay, and send the believed terrrorists home. There's going to be a fight, unless we just back down and say screw it, they're going to fight us, whether we fight back or not. Whether it's in Iraq, London, or New York, there is going to be a fight, Should we back down and let them have their way?

#3 First off, I can't see how you can compare what Nazi Germany did to what should be done for security sake. Hitler hated Jews, because of their religious beliefs, or just because they were Jews who really knows, But as being directly effected by 9/11, having lost a close family friend on one of the flights that hit the Towers, I can say I do not hate Muslims or Arabs, but that doesn't change the fact that they need to be watched. I realize that anyone can be a terrorist, the old lady the 20 year old. I know this, but what are the odds that a 70 year old woman, is going to be a terrorist, over the Arab keeping to himself looking sacipious (Whatever). But quess who we can't question, the Arab, because that would be ratial profiling. so the 70 year old gets yanked. B.S. Sorry. Let's go here There's a young girl say 8 years old, she is kidnapped by a white man, with dark hair in a blue sports car. Guess what, Everyone should look and question every white man with dark hair in a blue sports car. Why Because it's obvious that a black man in red truck didn't do it. This statement is not true, but it holds ground for us, All Muslims are not Terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim.